Software systems to innovate and grow

Episode 18

The Developer Advocate’s Quest: TJ VanToll with Telerik

Show Details

Hello Tech People!

Today, we have TJ VanToll from Telerik on the show.

We’re going to continue to talk about the role of the developer advocate and some of the experiences he’s had at Telerik. This is a very complex role that requires a lot of study.

Please welcome TJ.

Show Transcript

Carlos: Today, we have TJ Vantoll from Telerik on the show. TJ is the developer advocate of Telerik, and also one of the coworkers from one of our previous guests by the name of Jen Looper. We’re going to continue to talk about the role of the developer advocate and some of the experiences he’s had at Telerik as a developer advocate and some of the important points of being a developer advocate. Without further ado, please welcome TJ.

TJ, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. How are you doing today?

TJ: I’m doing great, thank you.

Carlos:
It’s an honor. As we were talking earlier, I’m excited for some of the work we might be doing together, so this is going to be very exciting.

TJ:
Definitely.

Carlos:
All right, TJ, for those who don’t know you, tell me a little bit about yourself and how did you end up in tech?

TJ:
Yeah, I’m from Michigan. I’ve lived in Michigan my entire life, for better or worse, I guess. I live in Lansing now, which is smack dab in the middle and I guess in attack I was the kid that wrote a whole slew of GeoCities and Angelfire sites back in the day with all of those horrible things you think of, the animated GIFs and the “Under Construction” signs and things like that. It was really my first exposure to technology at all back in, geez, middle school, something like that.

A sort of fostered my interest in the web and that’s sort of my path I took. I’ve been, really, a web developer professionally for about a decade, something like that, and it led to me getting involved in the jQuery Project and eventually my job at Telerik and working as a developer advocate and why am here today, I guess.

Carlos:
That’s pretty interesting. Just to add on how you got started, I haven’t had this conversation in a while, but I was also part of that generation of GeoCities, Angelfire. I remember the first time, like the first domain I ever bought, and I felt like I owned the Internet because I could now, I didn’t understand the concept of what a webpage was. I remember being confused at first as to how the whole thing worked, like, “I can buy a piece of the Internet?” Not having to have like GeoCities.com/whoknowswhat and then get to your site.

TJ:
Yeah, and then as a kid, too, you don’t realize at the time the vastness of the Internet. It feels like you actually have your own little corner and it’s very special and sort of enlightening.

Carlos:
I can remember one of the few websites I did back then, and it was on GeoCities or Angelfire, it was a Nintendo game website, something like that, with how-tos and stuff. Anyways, you just brought back memories. It just made me remember those few days.

All right, so tell me a little bit about Telerik, and will talk a little bit about, this episode is all going to be around the developer advocacy. Before we get there, tell me a little bit about Telerik and what does Telerik do?

TJ:
Yeah, so Telerik and also our parent company, Progress Software, it’s basically just a software company. We sell some stuff for various forms to other companies and we do so in many different ways. We make everything from CMSs, web UI components, mobile tools, we sort of span all spectrums. I think at Telerik as a brand is a sort of historically best known both for dot net tools. That’s where the company actually got started in, and also for UI components. We’re sort of known for making user interface components for just about everything. We have Kendo UI for the web, we have things for mobile. We still make Silverlight UI components, if you can believe that. We make just about everything.

Carlos:
Got you. So, you guys are basically writing, creating software for other software developers to implement in their software development lifecycles, if you would?

TJ:
Correct. Yep.

Carlos:
All right. What’s your favorite project? If you pick one of them? What’s kind of the one you like the most from Telerik?

TJ:
The product I’ve been dealing with lately is a Native Script, which has certainly been my pet project that I’ve been involved with for a year and a half, maybe even two years now. I think what’s interesting about it for me is that it’s one of the first things we’ve done at Telerik that was an open source project sort of from day one. We’ve released other things open source and we contribute to open source fairly heavily, but native script was the first thing that really we totally embraced that, right?

From day one, the code was out on GitHub and really everything we do around native script has been around GitHub, which is pretty interesting for a company that sells the software, because it’s cool, first of all, to be doing everything out in the open, not behind closed doors, but it can also be scary for a company that, I mean, we are a company, we are a business. We need to make money, so there’s other conversations of, “Well, if you do this, if you put this code out here for free, anybody can use it and such.” Ultimately, you need to find a way to make money off of it to get a return on the investment you made and all of the development that goes into making the thing.

Carlos:
Does the developer advocate have a role in that?

TJ:
Yes. Really, as a developer advocate, I like to describe the role to people, or my favorite description, I should say, is we’re sort of the in-between between the internal-facing side of the company and the external things. External things would be when we write blog posts, so often times as a developer advocate, we write blog posts. That would mean writing about the software we create, writing about things like Native Script. It can also mean speaking about the product. Having you get the word out, trying to get people to use the software, but it’s also internal, as well. One of the other things we do is help with, say, marketing initiatives so we can help marketers, people that are classically trained marketers that may be don’t necessarily understand the software world, help salespeople as well, for the software that we sell.

Salespeople are very talented people, but often times they don’t understand the nuance of the software developer world. Developers in general are very, very picky. They are one of the groups of people that can smell a sales pitch from a mile away. They know when they’re being sold to. As a company that sells software, you have to take, I guess, a more strategic or a different route if you want to actually gets developers to fork over money for the tools and the products you create.

Carlos:
Yeah, in the end, you have to speak their language. I don’t mean to oversimplify, but is it a little bit of translation? Helping the business folks get their message across, but also you’re doing things like using your internal resources for marketing purposes and that sort of thing?

TJ:
Yeah, and give you a specific example of this, often times a marketing and sales people, they’ll write up these advertisements or emails that the company puts out, and they’ll make them very buzz-wordy. I think for Kendo UI, which is our web aid product, when HTML 5 became a big buzzword, they would jump on the train and go, “HTML 5-ready” and all these are things that didn’t necessarily benefit with the product. They weren’t speaking to developers. It wasn’t more like “Here’s how you actually use the things. Here’s the problems that you actually, that you can solve using this product. That’s where the role of the developer advocate, at least in theory, can help come in and help those people sort of tailor there messaging and such to the audience that they are trying to reach.

Carlos:
Can you give us a little bit of a description of what it feels, what’s kind of the day-to-day responsibilities of a developer advocate? The reason I ask that is I want to say the majority of the people listening to the show are either engineers or in somewhat leadership roles in engineering, and might be thinking, “Well, am I doing developer advocacy already?” They can identify the actual responsibilities and roles that make a developer advocate. What is the day-to-day of an advocate?

TJ:
It’s sort of eclectic because we do a number of things. I think at a high level, my day is spent between four different things. I code, I still decode, at least a chunk of my time. But, it won’t be things, like I don’t maintain a production software system. That’s something I used to do and that’s one thing I’m grateful I don’t have to do anymore. I’m not maintaining any servers or any production code base, but I will help come up with, say, samples for common problems that people have. Say, people are trying to use Native Script and a certain problem keeps coming up over and over again.

Well, when I could to do is, say, try to solve the problem myself with our engineering team to help come up with a solution, and then maybe write about it to tell people how they can solve their problems. That’s one of the types of things that I may do. Writing blog posts comes into that.

Sometimes I end up working on the documentation or maybe GitHub issues are associated with those repositories. Another thing would be speaking, so as a developer advocate, at least I and I think most people in this role speak in conferences, perform in workshops, maybe travel to user groups. I think it depends on the company how much people do of that sort of thing.

Usually, once every month or two, I’m giving a talk somewhere about one of our products, and lately that’s usually been Native Script. So, those are some of the external-facing things. The others would be sort of internal things. I spend, for better or worse, I spend a decent chunk of my day in email as well. Helping with various pains were dealing with, help plan certain things that were doing, certain initiatives that we are running as either part of campaigns to help sell a product or a website that were pushing out to the back of various sorts to the people within the company.

Carlos:
When you say blogging and writing, do you, I mean, I know you’re an engineer, but do you yourself write blog posts or do you assign blog posts to internal engineers to kind of chip into the marketing side of the business.

TJ:
It’s a little bit of both. I definitely right. I write a lot of blog posts, and sometimes working with the engineering team to sort of help make sure I get the content right or help present things clearly, or present things accurately, I guess I should say. Sometimes, I ask engineering to write an article if I think, “You’re really the expert on …” For instance, this is just came up with no-js versions. With Native Script or command line interface affords a ton of no-js versions and it’s a big mess to deal with. I think that’s a good content for a blog article.

I think other people would find it interesting to know how we deal with supporting four or five crazy versions of no JS, and that’s something that engineering has a very specific knowledge of and that it would take me way too long to research and figure all that out myself. The other thing, too, and this is especially new for us with Native Script working with an open source project is we also have a fairly large community of people out in the public, not necessarily Telerik employees, as well. So, we work with these people as well because, obviously, we both have in interest in Native Script success.

These people that are using it, lots of times in their production apps, they want to see the product to succeed. We want to see it succeed as well. Sometimes, we can work with them to write or talk about what sort of things would be good content or even feedback on the product and how to make it better.

Carlos:
One thing I want to kind of zoom in a little bit about is the speaking and conferences part. I think it’s extremely valuable for people to speak at conferences not just for the benefits of doing so, but also kind of their own development in terms of their own knowledge. Telus, I mean, I’m probably going to have to ask you some questions we didn’t think of the floor, but how do you prioritize?
How do you come up with, so, let’s say, we’re still halfway into 2016. What are some conferences that you’re going to speak at in the second half of the year? How did you identify those and how did you go about getting there? How is that process? How do you actually do that process?

TJ:
Yeah, those are great questions. Measurement is always the hardest part of dev or any activities related to it. If you talk about events in particular, there really hard to track sort of in a funnel-based system where we put in this much money in this is what we get out of it. Much like you send out, for instance, like an email campaign. If you’re sending out a whole bunch of emails to people, you can put, analytic the heck out of the thing and say, “Well, we send it out to 10,000 people, then X number of people click on that and X number of people will eventually pay us money, that sort of thing.

In conferences, you don’t really have that. It’s a sort of nebulous of what your return is going to be. Often times, some of these conferences can have big price tags associated with it, right? It’s not uncommon to have a conference ask for a five figure price tag in order to sponsor some random thing, not to mention the cost of actually sending people out there and take the time out of their days. It ends up becoming a bit anecdotal, so what we do internally is that each conference we go to, we write up a little report on it.

We focus on things like how many people did we reach? What did we sponsor? What did we pay for that? Do we feel like we got a good return off our money that we put into this? It is subjective. There’s no real clear way to look at things. Usually, if you send a few people, you can get a good sense of whether you’re getting your message across and it really that’s the best you can accomplish. In terms of specific conferences, I’m trying to think back, the two big ones I’ve been to this year, I was at NG-Conf earlier this year speaking. I spoke at Phone Gap Day US, which was in Utah. Actually, both of those events were in Utah.

I’ve been in Utah twice this year, which is a weird state. That’s something I never thought I’d say. Coming up, we’re having a Native Script developer day in Boston that’s a coming up in the fall. I think that’s the only thing I’m committed to right now. I know we have some other people going to Connect Tech in Atlanta. Really, all of these things are events that we sponsor that we go to because we’ve been to them in the past and we sort of subjectively felt like our investment was worthwhile and that’s why we continue to do them.

Carlos:
How was NG-conf for you guys? I know that you guys were there, and we were there also. For us, and I think I mentioned this to you, it filled a little bit overwhelming. Although I love NG-Conf and I know that we’re going back sure, but how is the experience for you guys? Did you guys like it? What was the turn out?

TJ:
Yeah, so I really like the event. I’m with you, though, that it was absolutely nuts. I guess I didn’t really know what to expect, but there were kind of people in their. I think for us, in terms of, to go back to your earlier point in terms of value, what was cool is that because the conference was a one track event, we sort of have a unique ability to speak with a speaking role too, what were there, like 1500 people there? All at once, which is phenomenal. It’s something that you almost never get at a conference.

Most conferences will split people up into tracks and you’ll be lucky if you’re speaking to 100 people, much less 50 people in a room. To have the chance to reach 1500 people, 1500 angular people, which are people that we are interested in, which is phenomenal. We were ecstatic about having a chance to do that, but man that event was just sort of nuts in terms of the amount of people.

Carlos:
Yeah, I loved it, and it’s probably been one of the best conferences that I’ve ever been to. I was unprepared for the amount of people. That’s kind of the nut shell for me. I really enjoyed it. The question back to that is how does, and I know that it’s hard to measure, right? That’s the bottom line. Even if it was a great success for you, it’s hard to measure the benefits of actually investing and going to conferences. In conference like that, because it was, like, 8, 10 of you, something like that? It was a large group of you guys.

TJ:
Yeah, so we knew that there were going to be a lot of people. We had a booth at the event. Because we had a booth, wanted to make sure that we have enough people to staff the booth and to stick around with it. We wanted to have some of our core engineering team there to answer any questions people had. Yeah, I think we had 8, 9 people, something like that. Quite a few, which it’s an expensive investment and it takes a money not only to pay for that booth, but to fly all those people over. Really, the reason we did it is because we had been to previous NG-confs.

I personally wasn’t there, but some of my coworkers had and said, “This is a good event. It’s well-run, it’s an audience that has some interest in our products, and so we’ll go forth with it.” Really that’s, for better or worse, the best you can realistically do with this sort of thing.

Carlos:
That’s 100 percent true. I’m going to shift onto some of the stuff that you’ve had to do in order to get into this role, right? How did you handle the shift from coding all the time to be a developer advocate and non-coding all the time?

TJ:
I think I was a web developer of some sort for about eight years before I joined Telerik, so quite a while. It is a bit of a shift. It’s a pretty major shifts, actually, switching from that is really 100 percent of your time to, I think I tell people now that I code somewhere between one quarter and one third of my time. It is different, for sure. In a way, I have mixed feelings about it but I mostly prefer at and I say that because what I get to give up is a sort of the worst part of coding, the part where you get a call because your server or your app went down at midnight or whatever the case may be.

I don’t have to deal with that. I don’t have to deal with managing these legacy, old applications that lots of people have to do in the software development world. I get to work on new things, so the coding I get to do is actually very exciting. It’s very interesting, even if I’m spending less time on it. I do find, one of the reasons I took this role, is as I was coding I found that I genuinely enjoyed writing as well. It’s something that I enjoyed doing and wanted to spend more time doing, which is why I took the role.

I find that having a mix of things that you’re doing, while it can be sometimes a little bit crazy, is actually nice. On certain days, I have a bit of flexibility, too. There are days I feel like coding, so I can just turn off my notifications and get some coding done, and there are days where I prefer to just sit on my back porch and write all day. I have some flexibility that I can do that, as well.

Carlos:
Let’s zoom in on that writing thing, because it’s something that I’m challenging myself on, as I think I told you a little bit ago that we were working on our writing, when our blog writing and all that. What’s your method? Is there a thing such as a method for blog post writing? How do you go from zero to finished blog post? What kind of your roadmap for that?

TJ:
What I tried to do, whether successful or not, is I always try to just write the first draft of the thing as fast as I possibly can. Sometimes even one sitting, if it’s something short. If it’s something longer, that’s not going to be possible, but I try not to overthink little things because you can get tied up. I mean, I spent half the day writing an introduction, because you can just overanalyze the heck out of everything that you’re writing. I try at least to just go for it. Then, at the end, make several passes through it to sort of clean it out and sometimes, by the time you get through it, use sort of changed your mind about what you’re writing entirely.

Now, does that always happen? No, I’m still victim to the same sort of problems that a lot of writers, a lot of people have. The other thing I’ll say, too, is that over time I’ve come to realize that there are days where I just can’t write. I always try to never have deadlines for the things that I write, because there are some times when I just sit down to write something or do something and I just can’t do it. The nice thing about working as a developer advocate is there’s usually lots of things to do, and so on those days, I just won’t write. I’ll just do something else that I can do, either something more monotonous if I’m just not feeling energetic with the day or something. Coding or just something different to get away from it.

Carlos:
It’s impressive how writing, such a basic thing, because we’re writing all day, right? If you see, if you think of the medium with which we communicate, especially through computers, it’s mainly writing, right? It’s mainly words. Yeah, there are some of us like audio, this podcast, we have show notes, so we have to write them. Outside of that, you’re always writing, what when it comes down to putting your thoughts or, say, expending a concept, explaining something, it’s so hard to get that out of your head. I know it happens to me a lot and it’s one of the biggest things that I have to kind of deal with.

Do you find that putting together somewhat in a plan I had, has it work for you? Like putting together sort of an editorial calendar of sorts?

TJ:
Yeah. There’s actually two different conversations we could have here. We could talk about planning out individual articles or even planning in advance the things that you want to write. I’ve found that for actually planning out, like if I want to write, like, 5 or 10 things, that has really never worked for me in any way, shape or form just because certain days, I guess I write best when a topic inspires me just out of the blue, like totally like a software developer when a solution hits you.

When you just run across something in your day-to-day and you’re like, “Oh my God, I did not know about that. I have to write about this.” I can be immensely productive if I take advantage of that moment, that inspiration at the time, whereas if I put something on my calendar, it’s like, “Okay,” notification comes up and it’s like, “Well, it’s Tuesday. It’s time to write about no-js. Then I probably am going to look at that and go, “Oh, I don’t want to do this.” I don’t want to make things visible for myself, I want to enjoy the things that I write. I don’t want to make it monotonous. To a certain extent, I can’t avoid that entirely. There are certain things that are just part of my job that I have to write, and that’s just the way it is. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but for other things, I try best I can to just take advantage of inspiration when it strikes.

Carlos:
One of the things that I know it’s kind of a big deal for you guys as a developer advocate is measuring your efficiency. I know that we discussed it a little bit ago in terms of conferences, that it’s hard to measure, but how do you measure the success of an advocate as a job role overall? I know that’s kind of an important area to discuss, what does that look like for you?

TJ:
This is also super-hard, and we have lots of discussions about this as well. If you think about it, from a business perspective, at Telerik, we hire our team is seven or eight people, so it’s a decent sized team and we’re a Fortune 500 company. The CEO is going to say, “Hey, dev role was taking up these much assets. What are we actually getting for them?” At a certain point in any business you have to be able to justify your existence, tell people why you’re there. With dev roles it’s kind of hard. There’s a things like the sales division, it’s pretty easy, right? How much did you sell? How much money did you bring in?

Even marketing, you could have these things like “Well, these campaigns that were running, they’ve got X number of clicks, which brought in next number of trial users would lead to this. That sort of process. That doesn’t really exist for dev role, or at the very least it’s more nuanced and sort of hard to prove your value to the organization. There are some things that you can do. For instance, a blog post would be one good example. There are some metrics in there that you can track. You can track how many eyeballs your articles are getting. That may or may not be the right metric.

A more interesting one is if you can write a blog post to get people to click on something that you really want to do. I think when we were chatting earlier, if we use your NG book that you’ve been working on as an example, you could write an article about how to solve some very common angular 2 problem that people might have. Then, at the end, sort of give a mention that you can find content like this in NG book. One of the things you could measure is, “Well, how many people click on that link?” Right?

A business cares about that greatly because bringing in people, especially people that aren’t existing customers of yours, and to your ecosystem, even if you’re just exposing it to them, is a something incredibly valuable. It’s basically like a marketing role. Dev role is sort of half marketing, or is very much in the marketing realm of things. That’s one of the things you can sort of measure, just how many people do you bring in that wouldn’t have been there if you wouldn’t have written this thing that you put out there.

The other thing that we measure is we try to come as advocates, run certain initiatives or certain things that each person is responsible for. When we do that, will put out clear sort of metrics or at least the best we can in terms of the success of that thing. To give you a concrete example, so this isn’t so nebulous, is last year I ran a program that we called summer of native script, which is basically a thing that we try to do to get user groups around the world really, talking about native script. We put out, we build a website, we provided groups with the slides at various other things. The metric for that was just how many groups actually ended up holding a meet up? That wasn’t the thing that we were measuring that area and I think that one we ended up getting, like, 50 some groups, which I think was sort of average.

We were hoping for more, but that was a solid number that we were pretty happy with. Those sorts of initiatives, when you just run something, particularly something that’s sort of outside the rank-and-file things that you do during your day are more measurable. Something you can prove or show to senior-level management or other people to say, like, hey, look, there’s a thing that we did, a physical thing you can go to. You can also see metrics on how that is impacting the business.

Carlos:
That, I think is tremendously powerful. It’s one of the most important aspects of the developer advocates because it ties the beginning and the end. It ties the reasoning of why we need that role, right? It kind of makes and shows the business person or the CEOs like, “Oh, I get it. That’s the top of the funnel, right? Those of the activities that bring people to the top of the funnel.”
I guess, again, from a technical perspective, from an engineering perspective, we got it. The engineers and get to the importance of it, but sometimes that’s how you demonstrate it to the business.

TJ:
Yep, for sure.

Carlos:
All right, TJ, now we’re going to go into the last three questions that are towards personal to you, basically, in a way. One of them is, what would you say is your most pressing responsibility that would, or one day you think could keep you up at night?

TJ:
My most pressing responsibility at Telerik?

Carlos:
Yeah.

TJ:
Wow, this is tough. Probably something Native Script related. I guess I would say the single biggest thing I’m responsible for at the moment is I wrote the tutorials that people go through when they get started with Native Script and am sort of also in charge of maintaining that as Native Script versions come out, angular versions come out, that sort of thing. That’s the sort of thing that I have focused, those things took a fairly substantial amount of time to put together. Also, I think that they help make the experience that people have with the product that the on boarding process for any technology nowadays I think is incredibly important.

We’ve seen from our stats is that a certain number of people will come in to a product and they might just get stuck building out the first steps, or even with the installation before they even get started and just say, “Well, this is too complex or this isn’t for me or just screw it.” I’ve spent a lot of time trying, hopefully succeeding at optimizing that thing and giving feedback engineering as well to try to see if we could supply the process is much as possible for new people coming in.

Carlos:
Awesome. What advice would you give your younger, less-experienced self? Imagine you run into yourself, right? You go into a time machine, you have an opportunity to tell yourself something. Hey, do this, because it’s going to improve your life, what would it be?

TJ:
It would be to start writing as soon as possible. That’s the advice I generally give to just about any software developers out there. Really, I think when I did start writing, when I did, that’s the thing that got me the job at Telerik, ultimately. Having a blog out there in the world that people can see is an extraordinary way to show people, it’s better than any resume that you can put together, to show that you know what you’re doing, or that you are confident enough to get a blog out to the world. To put your own sort of unique is fan on it and show your knowledge through the articles that you write.

I think that it’s something that anybody can benefit from. A lot of people think that they can’t write. They think, “Well, I’ve just write code, I don’t know how to write words,” but as you said, everybody is writing already. You’re already writing emails, text messages, all these other things. When you write about something, write about a concept, it’s sort of a great way to learn about the concept. You might not think it, but once you start writing about something, you find the need to really perfect it, to sort of throughout the finer points of what you’re writing about, especially once you get into writing about things like documentation, trying to teach others is a great way to learn about a thing yourself. Just to write, both from making yourself look better, professionally and also just hoping to get the word out.

Carlos:
That’s great advice. You’re giving me that advice, because that’s something I’m working on, by the way. Thank you. That’s great advice. What book do you recommend, and any of the subjects we’ve discussed today.

TJ:
We have native script in action, which is coming out. Manning is the publisher. It’s in their early access program, so it’s not completely written yet, but I am a, what is my role? I’m some sort of editor on the book, as well, so I’ve got to read a few chapters even ahead of what’s already available. It’s quite good if you are learning to learn Native Script. Also, not self-serving for you at all, but NG book is also quite good. Just by chance, I happen to have purchased the book before I even met you are got on this, and so it was one of the things that helped me get up to speed with angular 2 just because adding up to speed with angular 2 is it not the easiest thing in the world.

Carlos:
Oh, thank you. That’s a big compliment coming from you.

TJ:
I’ll pick one more. This is a pretty popular book, but it’s quite good, CSS Secrets, by Leah Verou. It’s one of those books that’s very humbling. Since I’ve been doing web development for a long time, I always felt like my CSS knowledge was very good or that I knew what I was talking about. Then, I read CSS Secrets and realized that I basically brought myself back down to amateur status just because the concepts discussed are just pretty incredible. If you do web development, if you do CSS at all, it’s a great read.

Carlos:
Awesome. Those sound like great recommendations. Now, how can people find you and find your work?

TJ:
I try to be TJ Vantoll consistently on the Internet everywhere, so I am @TJVantoll on Twitter, TJ Vantoll on GitHub and my blog is TJ Vantoll.com.

Carlos:
Well, TJ, I want to thank you so much for your time today. This has been an awesome interview. We discussed all the points of the developer advocacy, but we went into different areas that I had discussed earlier with Jen Looper from your team. We had discussed a few different topics, so it’s interesting to get kind of the entire picture of what a developer advocate is, does, is responsible for and all the sorts of things. You guys are doing amazing. That’s the big thing about why I thought you guys would be a good team to cover what’s developer advocacy is because your customers are developers, so you guys have to do that job extremely well, and you can teach a lot of us have to do it better.

TJ:
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Carlos:
Well, TJ, thank you so much. I hope to see you on a conference soon.

TJ:
Absolutely.

Carlos:
Okay, thank you.